Show me one LS

[original88]

Now I'm just calling u out dude.....come "save" my soul....LMAO

[original88]

LS....smh Isa ibn Maryam was diefied 300 years after his supposed ascension to heaven during First Council of Nicaea...well known FACT. Christianity was in transition from an underground religon to a mainstream one. During this council they incorporated some Greek and Roman paganism so that the empire's citizens could come to an understanding and ultimately an acceptance of the new religon. Aside from all this there are no Historians of note from that period corroburating the EXISTANCE of Jesus...(I personally believe that he did walk this earth for 33years)??? And where he does appear it's only a couple of lines, explain this without the biast of The New Testament.

< but He is also truly God

If you knew what you are truly capable of you would laugh at this statement but years of exposure to "assumed" one dimesional beliefs severely limit you. You may pity me and pray for my soul but in the End...your just an 85er and you merit more pity than I.

You can catch all the Holy Ghosts you want LS...just don't push that shyt here....this is a Hip Hop Forum not a Christian one. I do welcome the debate nonetheless but if you could keep the "preaching" to a minium it would be greatly appreciated...in this case yes we are having a debate but Instead of the Hip Hop section you could've goaded me with your beliefs on the KnowLedge section (perhaps even started a new thread).

[LoveSupreme]

***THIS POST ORIGINALLY POSTED IN THE HIP HOP FORUM IN MY THREAD "Best Christian Rap?"***

LS....smh Isa ibn Maryam was diefied 300 years after his supposed ascension to heaven during First Council of Nicaea...well known FACT.

This is an easily resolved dispute. If any major ecclesiastical writers before Nicea thought Jesus was God, then your "well known fact" is nothing more than unsubstantiated propaganda.

Furthermore, if the New Testament writers, who pre-date all others regarding Jesus of Nazareth, thought so then your entire thesis crumbles. I don't even have to prove that those words are genuinely apostolic, only that the authors of the NT predate all others re: Jesus and that they teach that Jesus is God and other ecclesiastical writers afterward thought so.

Let's see what the deal is:

So-called 2nd Epistle of Clement c. 140AD (www.earlychristianwritings.com):

SECOND CLEMENT (2 Clement)
Translated by J.B. Lightfoot.

2Clem 1:1
Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ, as of God, as of the
Judge of quick and dead.

2Clem 1:2
And we ought not to think mean things of our Salvation: for when we
think mean things of Him, we expect also to receive mean things. And
they that listen as concerning mean things do wrong; and we ourselves
do wrong, not knowing whence and by whom and unto what place we were
called, and how many things Jesus Christ endured to suffer for our
sakes.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
Shorter Version c. 107AD, Prologue (from www.ccel.org) :

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

Chapter VII:

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible,— even Jesus Christ our Lord.

Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans: Syriac Version, Chapter IX (www.ccel.org):

Be ye perfectly strong in the patience of Jesus Christ our God.

Irenaeus, Contra Heresies, Book III, Chapter XIX, 182~188AD (www.ccel.org)

Chapter XIX.—Jesus Christ was not a mere man, begotten from Joseph in the ordinary course of nature, but was very God, begotten of the Father most high, and very man, born of the Virgin.

Just go read the whole chapter.

So there's 3 authentic 2nd century churchmen, all who thought Jesus was God. I tell you we have barely scratched the surface. This faith is prevalent throughout the first 3 centuries.

What of the NT (all citations NASB)?

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

...18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28-29:

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Acts 20:28:

28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 9:5:

5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Hebrews 1:6-8:

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
7 And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

1 John 5:20:

And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Titus 2:13

looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1:1-2:

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Those are just the explicit verses. There are plenty of verses that we may, by logic, deduce the same meaning.

All of the patristic examples ante-date Nicea (325AD) by 135 years or more. The NT examples ante-date Nicea by 250 or more. Your thesis is soundly refuted.

Christianity was in transition from an underground religon to a mainstream one. During this council they incorporated some Greek and Roman paganism so that the empire's citizens could come to an understanding and ultimately an acceptance of the new religon.

Here are all the canons of the Council of Nicea:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm

Please find any support for your assertions in these canons, or lacking that in ANY writing of ANY of the 318 Bishops who attended Nicea.

Aside from all this there are no Historians of note from that period corroburating the EXISTANCE of Jesus...??? And where he does appear it's only a couple of lines, explain this without the biast of The New Testament.

In the other thread I already gave you Josephus, Tacitus & Pliny the Younger to corroborate the existence of Jesus. Not to mention the Apostolic Fathers listed above. The multiple authors of the NT are also valid historical sources, not to be dismissed on a whim as you have.

< but He is also truly God

If you knew what you are truly capable of you would laugh at this statement but years of exposure to "assumed" one dimesional beliefs severely limit you. You may pity me and pray for my soul but in the End...your just an 85er and you merit more pity than I.

I don't condescend to pity you. You can't even choose to believe if it's not given for you to do by God. I merely do what I'm commanded to do:

1 Peter 3:15:

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence

Support this knowledge of "what you are truly capable of..." Where does it come from? Show me the documents and give your reason for believing them besides the queer predilection of your own mind.

Also, you are very wrong about my alleged "years of exposure to "assumed" one dimesional beliefs."

...and your NGE jargon and the truth claims it makes need to be proved, just as you demand my truth claims need to be proved. You rattle it off like it's an axiomatic fact with no support of any kind.

You can catch all the Holy Ghosts you want LS...just don't push that shyt here....this is a Hip Hop Forum not a Christian one. I do welcome the debate nonetheless but if you could keep the "preaching" to a minium it would be greatly appreciated...in this case yes we are having a debate but Instead of the Hip Hop section you could've goaded me with your beliefs on the KnowLedge section (perhaps even started a new thread).

I was engaged with it on this thread. I merely was interested in the contribution of Christians to Hip Hop [there] when I was attacked without provocation by Sean P. Then others made comment and I answered.

Re: "...catch...the Holy Ghost"

All Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but "catch the Holy Ghost" is a Pentecostal idea. I am a Reformed Christian and a cessationist. It can't apply to me.

LS

[LoveSupreme]

Now I'm just calling u out dude.....come "save" my soul....LMAO

I can't do that.

I can only answer your challenges and call you to substantiate your claims. Come and humble me by the soundness of your argument and the erudition of your scholarship.

If God leads you to believe, then all praise and glory to him.

LS

[original88]

aight aight, gimme a minute

[Inkognito]

Yall niggaz wildin on some sunnywinters/knowitall tip...

[original88]

^LMAO...dude tryin to save me wit the light man...todays the sabbath, i'm taking it off...I'll try pissing u off tomorrow LS...'till then listen to immortal techniques - crossing the boundary on repeat till ur ears bleed

[~K!dney-$h@t's~]

lMFAO Immortal techs the shit................................

[LoveSupreme]

I'll try pissing u off tomorrow LS.

I don't think you can. I don't take this internet thing that seriously.

LS

[piff]

You can only be saved if you want to be

[original88]

^no disrespect but listen to urself man

[original88]

It's all peace LS i dont take it seriously either

[LoveSupreme]

I just mean that it's only talk. Nothing said here will make my life worse.

It doesn't mean I don't do the best I'm able, but if someone writes something "trying to piss me off" it doesn't have the power to do that.

I'll still look for your reply. Will it be today since your sabbath is over?

LS

[original88]

LOL...

In Brazil we have a saying... "Don't prod a snake with a short stick"...patience...I will have a response for u LS soon enough.

Either way I don't thnk we'll be able to change eachothers minds, so now I'm just doing this out of the spirit of competition.

While I enjoy my weekend I suggest u watch http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com ...of course I'm not telling you everything in it is fact (fuck it I'll go as far as calling it propaganda) just take a look at the sources and what not when ur done watching. Just requesting u watch it with an open mind LS.

original samurai

[LoveSupreme]

In Brazil we have a saying... "Don't prod a snake with a short stick"...patience...I will have a response for u LS soon enough.

Bom dia, O88. Tudo bem?

(that's the extent of my Portuguese, so don't expect any more.)

Either way I don't thnk we'll be able to change eachothers minds, so now I'm just doing this out of the spirit of competition.

I do it in the spirit of the love of truth, of wisdom. A commitment to the truth demands that we be prepared to change our mind when the truth is contrary to our ideas. At least if we are honest with ourselves.

Also, it's worth considering those who would read what we write.

While I enjoy my weekend I suggest u watch http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com ...of course I'm not telling you everything in it is fact (fuck it I'll go as far as calling it propaganda) just take a look at the sources and what not when ur done watching. Just requesting u watch it with an open mind LS.

Seen it. They could have been much more brief given the commonness of their arguments. You'll get the same level of philosophical sophistication from Richard Dawkins book, "The God Delusion." See Notre Dame Philospher, Alvin Plantinga's review of this book on Christianity Today's site.

LS

[LoveSupreme]

It's Tuesday.

I thought surely your sabbath would have you rested enough to post some scholarly refutation of my claims by now.

Maybe the unsubstantiated, non-scholarly claims of the Zeitgeist movie are all you have?

LS

[original88]

U still on this man LOL...u win Jesus is god whatever

[LoveSupreme]

LOL! Come on, dude!

You're a critical thinker. I admire that. Your BS sensors went off over the Zeitgeist movie and you appear to genuinely care about whether what you believe is in line with reality.

Yet you throw your lot in with the NGE...why?

I can tell you why I read the Satanic Bible and the Necronomicon when I was a younger man. It's what I call the Matrix effect (after the movie). I thought it was cool to see more-real reality behind the one that presents itself to my senses and reason. It was a prideful sort of thing. It was cool to be part of a gnostic minority who, by virtue of their special knowledge, would have some special power over the normal person...even if that power amounted only to an inside joke with the others who also were in the clique.

The NGE have a foothold in rap because some of our favorite MCs are 5%ers. Their anthro-theology and Supreme Mathematics and Alphabet are a special gnosis that only a few have...a cipher.

Ask yourself: How do we best explain the human condition? The universe? Minds? The dignity of the person? Logic?

...I can see you're bored with it...nevermind...

LS

[original88]

If you know anything about the NGE it's that encourages it's "followers" to study various religons and to find common truths in them... They encourage reading the Q'uran, Bible, Torah, Vedas ect., and that u interpret them not just follow it blindly.. I guess I personally I don't believe in Jesus Christ because in reality I'm in control of my own "destiny" or what have u (not that it matters in the universal sense) we are all gonna die anyway how many of us will truly be remembered? My beef with religon is the control they try to impose on ur life... u have muslims killing jews, jews killing christians, christinas killing muslims and so on and when that's not the case it's catholic vs protestant or sunni vs shia.... That's bullshyt we are ALL PEOPLE that is the Truth... Live and Let Die ya know?

[LoveSupreme]

If you know anything about the NGE it's that encourages it's "followers" to study various religons and to find common truths in them... They encourage reading the Q'uran, Bible, Torah, Vedas ect., and that u interpret them not just follow it blindly...

It's the unique truth claims of Christianity that make it compelling. The Zeitgeist movie knows this and that's why the attach on Christianity it makes is to cast a shadow upon it's uniqueness, most especially the historical reality of the person of Jesus of nazareth and the discounting of the historical documents giving witness to him.

The skeptics who believe that Shakespeare never existed are standing on better ground than this.

I guess I personally I don't believe in Jesus Christ because in reality I'm in control of my own "destiny" or what have u (not that it matters in the universal sense) we are all gonna die anyway how many of us will truly be remembered? My beef with religon is the control they try to impose on ur life... u have muslims killing jews, jews killing christians, christinas killing muslims and so on and when that's not the case it's catholic vs protestant or sunni vs shia.... That's bullshyt we are ALL PEOPLE that is the Truth... Live and Let Die ya know?

The abuse of something doesn't discredit it's rightful use. Nor does the human condition of sin (the violence you point to above) disprove the worldview of Christianity which tells us clearly why it is that way.

*Love your neighbor as yourself
*Don't kill
*Don't steal
*Forgive
*Respect marriage
*Don't lie

What is wrong with those "controls" that the Christian religion places on people?

LS